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As a Washington DC native, Melissa Springer knows the city's streets and the stories they harbor all too well. Her early years, marred by the realities of violence and upheaval in the nation's once-dubbed murder capital, have shaped her into a fierce advocate for those entangled within the criminal justice system. Through her eyes, we grasp the vital importance of support systems, particularly for young mothers and children whose lives are touched by the shadows of prison walls.
The narrative takes a deeper turn with the stirring case of Joshua Jackson, a name that represents the countless faces of wrongful conviction. The emotional weight of fighting for justice in the face of flawed forensic testimonies is a burden shared by advocates like Melissa, who tirelessly work to lift the heaviness of this injustice. We confront the loneliness of the incarcerated, the impact of systemic legal failures, and the complexity of balancing the advocacy for the convicted with the perspectives of victims' families. It's an exploration that challenges us to reexamine our thoughts on second chances and the intricacies of the criminal justice system.
Closing the discussion, I reflect on my own journey of reintegration post-incarceration, underlining the transformative impact that mentorship and thoughtful planning can have on this precarious transition. With gratitude, I acknowledge the selfless dedication of individuals like Marva King and Karen Morrison, who join Melissa in guiding the formerly incarcerated back into the community. This episode is an invitation to walk a mile in the shoes of those seeking redemption and to appreciate the often-overlooked heroes who help pave the way to a brighter, liberated future. Join us as we usher in a conversation centered on hope, resilience, and the unquantifiable value of a second chance at life.
Welcome back to another episode of Lets Just Talk About it podcast. I'm your host, chuck, and if you're here for the first time, this platform was created to give genuine people just like you an opportunity to share a portion of your life's journey. So, with that being said, on this episode I have guest Melissa Springer, from the Washington DC area, here to talk about growing up in DC and her advocacy work helping men and women who are incarcerated to get a second chance back into society. So, you don't want to miss this amazing conversation today. As a matter of fact, do me a favor go and grab your husband, your wife, your children, or even call a friend and gather around to listen to my conversation with Melissa on Lets Just Talk About it podcast. Hey, let's jump right in. Welcome back to another episode of let's Just Talk About it podcast Today. I have Melissa Springer on with me today. How's it going, Ms. Melissa?
Melissa:I'm fine. How are you?
Chuck:Doing good. Thank you so much for coming on with me today.
Melissa:Thanks for having me.
Chuck:Absolutely, melissa. I love to jump right in those conversations, to have those genuine conversations with genuine people just like yourself. And I love to jump in with this question when are you from?
Melissa:I'm from Washington DC and I was also raised in Washington DC.
Chuck:Okay, wow. So what part of DC are you from what you know? How does that work?
Melissa:So DC has eight wards. I grew up in Ward 1.
Chuck:Ward 1, wow.
Melissa:Which is the Columbia Heights area, but when I was a baby, up until I believe, like 11 or 12 years old, I was living in Addis Morgan area, okay, which is close to the zoo.
Chuck:Wow.
Melissa:And my mother moved to Ward 1 in Columbia Heights.
Chuck:Okay, wow. So how was it growing up? Let me just say DC. How was it in?
Melissa:that culture Okay. So when I was growing up in DC, it was considered the murder capital.
Chuck:Yep.
Melissa:So the crime rate was very high. At that time, DC had one of the highest murder rate in the United States.
Chuck:Yeah, yeah, you think about that now. Murder, you know you hear a lot of it, but back then I used to hear that a lot about DC being the murder capital. Yeah, that's deep.
Melissa:So then, like the first neighborhood, I grew up in Addis Morgan, the area that I grew up in close to the zoo. That neighborhood had a low crime rate. But then, when we moved to the neighborhood in Columbia Heights, the block that I live on, that neighborhood had a high crime rate. And I grew up in DC, like in the 90s and early 2000s.
Chuck:Yeah, so yeah, I think that's what it was like 89, 90, 91. That's when you heard a lot about DC.
Melissa:Yes, yeah.
Chuck:Yeah, yeah. So growing up in DC you had that around you. Did it affect you in any way? You know, in terms of what you heard about, what you saw, did it affect you?
Melissa:I would say yes, because going from, you know, moving to a neighborhood that was crime affected and drug affected, I would think it did. And then I grew up with kids who, until this day, is still currently incarcerated. Wow, the kids you grew up with back then Some, yeah, some of them are still incarcerated. Then you know, there's some that are doing very well.
Chuck:That came out of that era.
Melissa:Correct.
Chuck:Wow, wow. So you grew up in DC. How was it for you when you got out of the house, you know, when you got grown, because there's the age we come to. We feel like we're grown.
Melissa:Right, I'm like.
Chuck:I'm out of here. I'm 18. I'm set, whatever.
Melissa:Right.
Chuck:How was that for you?
Melissa:So I didn't leave it like right away. I would say I did go to college. I went to UDC, but I didn't graduate. Then I started working and when I was 22, I had my daughter and like a few years later I started working for Department of Homeland Security.
Chuck:Wow.
Melissa:And then, a few years ago, I was like I want to go back to school and I was like, well, but I first went to school, for is not the passion that I have now, which was journalism? So I still like to write, because I write poetry too, got you. But when I went back to school, I went to Catholic University of America and I studied paralegal.
Chuck:Got you. Let me ask you this let's go back. We're going to go forward in a minute. So you're young, you're raising a daughter, so you never I always say you never know who's listening, and there are a lot of young ladies who have daughters at a young age. Was that tough for you? Like having a daughter young?
Melissa:I would say yes, but I do have a lot of help for her.
Chuck:Got you.
Melissa:So I can't imagine somebody who has a child yeah, Even if you're not young just not having any help. I don't see how they're doing it.
Chuck:Right, right right.
Melissa:So that makes me think about like some of the stuff that I do, like with the advocacy and stuff like that. So when I do me some, you know the parents are the guardians, mm, hmm, and a lot of them are children of incarcerated parents or drug addicted parents. A lot of kids they suffer.
Chuck:Got you.
Melissa:Because it's like so far as they have, but one parent is missing due to incarceration or drug abuse. It changes the whole dynamic. So I remember reading an article when I was in class about like children of incarcerated families. A lot of kids end up in a foster care system due to incarceration and drug addicted parents.
Chuck:Wow, wow, mm. Hmm, let's talk about that because, as I stated, you advocate. You know what I mean. You just pretty much mentioned it. But talk about that because, again, you never know who's listening that your passion is for those who are incarcerated. So, melissa, how did you get started with advocacy?
Melissa:Mm, hmm, good question. I've always had a passion to help vulnerable adults and children, but I never knew where to get started. So one day I was on the internet and I saw an ad pop up and I clicked on it and it was about, like you know, children of incarcerated families, mm, hmm. And I was like, hmm, I want to see I, can, you know, get into volunteering? Because I wanted to start off volunteering and I found a Googling you know places in the DC area where I can volunteer at, and oh, let me, no, no, let me back up. I did a restorative justice training a couple of years ago at a church in DC near Shaw Howard train station, and a lady who was in the training with me mentioned national reentry network for returning citizens.
Chuck:Right.
Melissa:The CEO. He came and spoke to us too. So when she mentioned, oh, you can reach out to a national entry network and see, oh, and I reached out to him and it took off from there. But during that timeframe, when I just mentioned about the ad popping up, I ended up reaching out to other people and, you know, just telling them well, this is my passion, and it just took off from there. Wow, and I will say this too yeah, even if you don't finish college, just having college credits open so many doors and it'll have to be college, it could be learned learning a trade.
Chuck:Got you.
Melissa:Just me telling people okay, I'm going to school for per legal. That, too, made them even more interested. Wow, because you know, per legal is also connected to law, to law. Yeah, mm-hmm, and I never got a chance to finish getting my degree in per legal, but I was the same, just having. Yeah right, right, like even when I thought the people who don't have any high school diploma. I always pushed them to get their GED. Wow, because that will open doors too.
Chuck:Yeah, Shoot, that's hard. Hey listen, GED is no joke.
Melissa:No, it is not. That's what I keep hearing too. So getting a GED is hard and what I've heard from people that took it and people that teach the course everything you would have studied in four years you're doing it within a year, or less than a year, it's no joke, yeah, so anybody who is able to pass a GED.
Chuck:You're smart.
Melissa:Yes, I commend them.
Chuck:Absolutely. Man Get your GED.
Melissa:Yes, yeah.
Chuck:So you're passionate, go ahead. I'm sorry.
Melissa:And I was going to say this is just my personal opinion. So I do think some children maybe getting a GED is better than actually staying in school for four years. That's just my personal opinion and I'm saying this due to this need my interactions with the youth and also to especially children who have learning disabilities. The public school system isn't set up to address those issues and a lot of schools that address those issues they're private and when I see to some parents who are trying to get their kids into these schools, it's not easy.
Chuck:Wow.
Melissa:So that's another issue too, like students are not getting the one on one attention that they need, who do have learning disabilities or mental illness, and along with other issues too, some of these youth are dealing with, but they're not household.
Chuck:Got you, got you.
Melissa:And it shows what's going on right now, but the high rate of carjacking amongst the youth.
Chuck:You see that a lot in DC, right, I heard about that.
Melissa:Yes, yes, and it's nationwide. Yeah, that's great. Like you know, something that youth would tell you I don't have any food to eat at home. I'm living in deplorable conditions. Some of them, you know, are in toxic environments where they're being raped or molested.
Chuck:Wow.
Melissa:Some of them are in group homes. What people who don't need to be working in these group homes, who don't care about them?
Chuck:Don't care, just got a job.
Melissa:Right, just, you know, they just want to check. So that's what made me want to get involved with advocacy and also, too, like I was saying, like so me working with incarcerated adults. A lot of them have childhood trauma, right, so that's what led to me passing about the youth. Yes, childhood trauma. That was never addressed.
Chuck:Addressed. Talk about that childhood trauma that you see Like what do you hear from people that are incarcerated?
Melissa:So for one single parent household, a lot of men that is incarcerated, don't know who their father is and that also takes a toll on a person A lot of, because I more so have dealings with men. I would love to get involved with women, but that are incarcerated. A lot have been through malestation.
Chuck:Right right.
Melissa:By another male. So you know, these things really do take a toll on your mental health and your self-esteem. Poverty that's an issue too, like a lot of them will say. I thought of selling drugs just to have food to eat, playing, clothes to wear. I was being bullied because I was going to school with dirty clothes on. My mother didn't have to buy any soap Because the money that she, you know, like this stuff is real. Yeah because she was spending her money on crack.
Chuck:Right.
Melissa:Yeah. So let me ask you this.
Chuck:Let me ask you this so these are the things that you're hearing when you go advocate for different people that are incarcerated. So what's the process of you going in and how did it get in contact with you? How do you know about what's going on with people's cases?
Melissa:So I'm more so communicating, like over the telephone. I've been inside the jails a few times, but just word of mouth and also to let me be involved with an organization that does go inside the jails that's how I got connected and also to people coming home and who are being recommended to these organizations to have a theory entry. A lot of them still know people that's incarcerated. So when I speak to them they would say well, can I give your permission to this person you know friends that's currently incarcerated and I would say sure Word of mouth.
Chuck:Word of mouth, word of mouth. So once you get these cases, how do you go about it?
Melissa:So, like for me, because I do it on my own too and I also do other organizations, but just connecting them to resources as far as like helping them get an attorney, helping them get connected to other organizations that pick up donations for commissary. There's organizations out here too that would give transportation money and hygiene products to loved ones, other incarcerated families. They are yeah, so you can use like the transportation money to take the train or the bus to the court, hearing sort of visit them and facilities. I'm also part of a participatory defense program with life after release. That's an organization in Maryland that helps incarcerate people and their loved ones.
Chuck:Wow, you spoke about a case before we came on to record. You spoke about a case. You want to talk about that?
Melissa:Yes, I do so. Somebody who I am currently advocating for his name is Joshua Jackson. He recently just did an interview. I don't know if I should say who he did the interview with because it's not out yet, but the writer is still in a process of doing the editing. But Mr Jackson's case involves unethical and misleading testimonies from DFS that negatively affected his conviction. He's been waiting in Sanctisans for seven years now. Wow. In the jail In the jail.
Chuck:Wow.
Melissa:So that says a lot. Wow, yes, wow, in the jail, in the jail. So he was in DC jail and just a few months ago he was moved to Chesapeake detention facility in Baltimore. So I hope talking about his situation was with some light on it.
Chuck:Right.
Melissa:And during his timeframe, dfs, which is DC Department of Forensic Sciences they lost their accreditation. They just got it back last month.
Chuck:Wow, no, no, no.
Melissa:I think the beginning of Jame already got it back, but for the same thing.
Chuck:Got you Like for mishandling cases.
Melissa:Correct Anybody who's listening to this. I want them to look it up. Dfs DFS losing their accreditation.
Chuck:Wow, so this is a daily thing for you Like dealing with these cases, dealing with different organizations to help these guys or women out with their cases. Correct, I know out here is like people going with their lives. It's like I'm going to say dead time in there, nobody really cares anymore. When you're inside, everything stops, but everybody out here keeps going on. So, yeah, it can play a part in your mental. So for people like yourself and Others who I've spoken to, to go in and really, you know, have a heart for those who are incarcerated, that means a lot. So shout out to you.
Melissa:Thank you. Yeah, like these are people's lives, their freedom. Yeah, a lot of them have children. Like Mr Jackson, he has a daughter and Wanted to also say who's like everything that happened within his case. Dfs never reported what they done to the OAG.
Chuck:Wow, what is that?
Melissa:Which is the office of attorney general. Oh Got you so want to put that out there too.
Chuck:Wow, wow, like going on. Nobody knows about it. You don't try to understand, right yeah? Right can see why. Wow, so doing that all the time and seeing this go on, does that affect your, your mental? How do you? Yes, it does so talk about you sound so peaceful, so how does that affect you?
Melissa:talk about it because I end up bonding with these people so I become more like their friend. It's a money that they can talk to about anything. I do like to meet people feel comfortable, got you, so I get close with them and I hear all kinds of stuff. You know, people would tell me the Effects of incarceration, right, which you know I've always heard. But to hear it, you know, coming directly from someone who is currently in a situation, it hits Different. Yeah, so when I hear people tell me, you know I cry too much every day, just, you know a lot of regrets, right, you know, could you have time to think why you're in there?
Chuck:Yeah, absolutely.
Melissa:So so you think about, like, all the stuff you done wrong that led you to where you're at now. When you think about people who Spoke to you about you know you need to change got you wow, if you don't do that, this is what's going to happen. And then you also see who is your real friends.
Chuck:That's the fact.
Melissa:Yeah, everybody who you think is your friends is not your friend that's going family too. Oh okay, everybody's your friend. When you're doing well, yeah, we got money. But when you're going through hard times, can't find anybody you can't find anybody, and everyone who I, you know, advocate for or even talk to, who been in that situation, would tell you it's a lonely in there.
Chuck:Wow. So you listen and you carry a lot because you're hearing what they're going through. So, being a I'm gonna say this being a young lady, so you really have to be careful yourself not to take on too much to represent them.
Melissa:Yeah, that's that has to be.
Chuck:Yeah, kind of a fight for you so it is.
Melissa:Yeah and I'm passionate about it.
Chuck:Yeah.
Melissa:And then I also see like how the system Trace people who don't have the finances.
Chuck:Yeah, Do you do a lot of pro bono.
Melissa:Well, I mean, I'm not an attorney. Got you, not you. What you know lawyers and so forth that oh, I know, I know, I know, I know a lot. Yeah, I know a lot of attorneys and people that work in law enforcement. So so I get to see, like, how is it's all set up by design?
Chuck:got you. So let me talk about this because, again, you never know who's listening. There are a lot of people who have been the victim of those who are being Advocated for. You know what I'm saying, so the compassion that you have, maybe for them to get out, but, right, the person whose family been the victim want them to see them, want them to stay in. So how do you, how do you balance that part?
Melissa:because that's a good question. One time someone told me oh, it seemed like you're pro criminal.
Chuck:Why would I be?
Melissa:pro criminal. That don't make any sense. I'm just pro Second chances and people getting a free.
Chuck:Absolutely.
Melissa:I'm what. You know that'll. I would never be pro criminal, cuz. I'm gonna be honest if someone wants to do something to me, mm-hmm, of course I would want them in jail too, you know. Okay, but the thing is I just feel like second chance, it's second chances. And also you have people who've been in for like 30 years, who have done things to rehabilitate themselves, absolutely. So why not give them a second chance?
Chuck:Absolutely, I agree.
Melissa:Especially if you see what's going on to like a lot of people who's coming home under the hour and second lip long in the DC area, mm-hmm. A lot of them are doing amazing things and I know a lot of those men. Yeah, so I would never, because of course, I want to live in a safe community, living in a safe world, just like everybody else right. I wish crime didn't exist, but crime is born to always happen like so I just feel. I think that me personally to personally. When people give me second chances for resources, you see the outcome of it, the positivity. Mm-hmm you gain from it right, absolutely. So that's what I'm also advocating for, like more resources, is more resources put into these facilities?
Chuck:got you so you probe second chance. I correct absolutely, cuz I got me one, so Good, definitely with that. Yeah, people do deserve a second chance. But I was just speaking from the perspective. You're advocating for people to be released, get that second chance. But they also people on the other side who's who's been the victim that want people to stay in, that disagree with what you're doing. So I would just say how do you manage that out.
Melissa:You know, right, understand, you know, and I've said this to two people I can't tell victims how to feel. Mm-hmm, I can't because you were the victim. So you have the right to say no, this person don't deserve a second chance.
Chuck:Right, got you Wow. So if people want to reach you, they hear you talking about being an advocate, but you and I know you in DC, but how can it get in contact with you? They want to solicit your help.
Melissa:I'm on Instagram Mm-hmm. My page name is lovely more 5417 L-O-V-E-L-Y-M-O-I 5417. I can also give out my email address for it. Mm-hmm, so that's M-E-L 7.ms 8 at gmailcom.
Chuck:Wow.
Melissa:I check my emails pretty much every day.
Chuck:Got you, got you. So what do you want people to know about you as an advocate?
Melissa:I want people to know that I'm passionate about what I do, mm-hmm. I Put in a lot of time into helping people. It's not easy, mm-hmm, because I'm spending time looking up resources online and trying to Reach out to people.
Chuck:Mm-hmm, do you own money?
Melissa:Yes, I do, mm-hmm. Yes, I do, wow, and so I'm looking into getting donations, which is not easy. Oh, and I just also Registered my business this past Monday, talk about, which is named transcending all odds.
Chuck:Mm-hmm, what's that about?
Melissa:Transcending all odds is a business to help incarcerated people, returning citizens and Vulnerable children and adults. So it's new. It's like my babies have to nourish it.
Chuck:Absolutely. Yeah, put your all into it. Yeah, like you say, you know you grow the way you want to grow it, and and this is what you want to do no matter what people say. Yeah, if you believe in it, keep going.
Melissa:I got a question for you too, but, but I'm but. First I want to say does anybody out there who does have a passion for helping people, especially the youth, please do it, because just take a one person under your wings to make a difference. I agree a lot of these youth. They just need somebody to talk to wow, even if they in a you know, in a household that is stable. Sometimes what they're dealing with they don't tell their parents but they would tell you. You know someone who was their mentor. You know you have the time to get involved in an organization that mentors to you do it. And I will say to you somebody who has spent time in prison, who helped you to reentry back into society, because you're doing very well.
Chuck:Good question, Good question. Well, before I came home, they had this program that helps you, you know, write checks or you know, know what's going on outside. So my father worked in a particular place, and so I had gave him a phone call and asked him. I said, you know, is it possible I can come to work with you at when I come home? And so when I got out, that's what happened I went to work that same week. But, before I got out. I was planning to get out. I just didn't get out and like, what am I going to do now? So I was like planning to do what I was going to do. So I got out and I worked at night. So I had to learn the bus, so I caught the bus to work. So that's how I started, that's how I got, you know, got through.
Melissa:That's a good example, just having a support system.
Chuck:Support system. There you go, I agree, I agree totally.
Melissa:Makes a difference. I agree, you took the bus.
Chuck:Yeah.
Melissa:And that's what I want people to hear too Like you got to take baby steps.
Chuck:Yeah, yeah, it's going to be a struggle Right Right. Yeah, absolutely, that was a good question.
Melissa:Thank you, yeah, Because I think people need to hear stuff like that, Especially the you know people who you know that's incarcerated right now, and they was in the streets make a money. A lot of them are used to having money, and I would hear these type of stories too, so it's like when they come home and they got to make minimum wage. That too, you know, also takes a toll on them, and I'd like to know, like you know in due time, you're going to get to where you're going when you're doing things the right way, the positive way, yeah.
Chuck:Let me say this.
Melissa:That's the steps.
Chuck:Let me add this to the story I worked for 27 cent in prison, got paid once a month, so when, I thought about making at that time. When I came home in 03, it was, you know, $12 was everything. So I started adding in my mind. I was like let's go Because it's more than $45 a month.
Melissa:Right yeah.
Chuck:So it adds up.
Melissa:Right.
Chuck:Yeah, I feel like I'm being interviewed, so I thank you. Thank you for bringing that out of me. Yes, I'm on an interview. Shout out to you, melissa. Thank you.
Melissa:No, I just because people need to hear this Absolutely Especially. You know I checked out your other interviews. I'm like you know you got something good going. I appreciate it and they hear like you were once incarcerated, so people need to hear how you got to this point.
Chuck:Maybe I do it.
Melissa:And it didn't happen overnight.
Chuck:Absolutely so. It did not at all. So it took some falling down getting back up.
Melissa:But you got to keep going.
Chuck:You got to be determined because I'm telling you out here for free eating and being able to cut the light on yourself, being able to take a shower with not nobody around Around. Using the bathroom and prism yes, Leave the house and just go outside and look at the sun. It's everything you know.
Melissa:Right.
Chuck:Yeah.
Melissa:Right, and you've me to hear this too.
Chuck:Yeah. So it's, everything man being able to be free. Freedom is everything and you don't realize how good you have it being free until it's not there, no more, until you hit them, gates, clothes behind you and your mom and your dad.
Melissa:They cannot come rescue you. Nobody.
Chuck:Nobody so yeah.
Melissa:I've heard everything. Someone told me who did a lot of time. He said his worst days in society don't compare to his worst days in there. So he said I'd rather have worst days in society free right free dead in prison.
Chuck:Yeah, free. It's been over 20, some 20 years. This year I've been home 20 years. Congratulations 20 years and man, it's great, it's not. It is not, not easy. You have your issues or whatever, but sometimes I pause and I think about where I come from and being incarcerated and it's like man, you can't beat it. Being free Right, it's no comparison.
Melissa:So Right, yeah, and I will always it's for me. I would tell people to have been the right kind of people around you.
Chuck:Mm, hmm, said a lot too. Yeah, right, I agree, right, I agree.
Melissa:And I would say praying too.
Chuck:Absolutely Shout out to you for saying that yeah. That's the key. That's the key. God is the first one. That's the key right.
Melissa:Right, the key to success.
Chuck:Right, yeah, absolutely right. So I really appreciate this conversation and you interviewing me, melissa. I appreciate that. Thank you, because you made me think about some things. You know, that's what I do. See, he's just how I connect to the people.
Melissa:I'm an advocated for.
Chuck:Thank you for the interview. I appreciate that.
Melissa:I like to make people comfortable and knowing your back story. Yeah, I was. You know me being passionate about what I do. Come on, people to hear your story when I share this interview.
Chuck:Absolutely yeah, I did seven years and eight months. Seven years, eight months incarcerated. I went in in February, 1996, february, and I came home October 2003. So I was supposed to come home in February 2004, but my good time brought it back to seven years, eight months.
Melissa:So I pushed it back.
Chuck:It was supposed to be eight years straight, but it pushed it back, so good time.
Melissa:That's good.
Chuck:So yeah, blessings.
Melissa:So here I am for a reason.
Chuck:So I really appreciate this first conversation that we have. It's going to be another one, so I appreciate you being on and be a part of. Let's just talk about it, melissa. Thank you so much. Is there anything you want to share before we close out?
Melissa:No, I want to say thank you for having me and continue to do what you're doing. Thank you. Because you're making a positive impact.
Chuck:Wow, shout out to you. Thank you so much and I appreciate you.
Melissa:Thank you again. All right, thank you.
Chuck:Wow, what an amazing conversation. Shout out to Melissa for having this dialogue with me. You know, one of the things that stuck out to me about this conversation was a genuine concern and care for those who are incarcerated, and so for me, as a person who has been incarcerated before, I understand the need for people like Melissa Springer, marva King and Karen Morrison, who are doing the work of helping men and women get a second chance back into society. So thank you Again. Thank you so much for tuning in to let's Just Talk About it podcast, and please check out my website. Just Google let's Just Talk About it podcastcom and then hit that subscribe button to receive all the new episodes every Friday. You can also find me on Facebook. Just type in Chuck LJTAI, which means let's Just Talk About it. So, as always, until next time, don't hold it in, but let's just talk about it. Talk to you soon.
